Friday, September 08, 2006

Church to spent $100 million???



Why does a church wants to spent $100 million just to built a convention center?

That money can be used for uplifting the lifes of those in destitute conditions.

Afterall, church's money are from it's members' altruistic intend and wouldn't it be far effective to uplift the lives of those in dire straits and those destitute?

The Calvary Convention Centre, to be located beside the Bukit Jalil Golf and Country Resort, is expected to cost RM100mil, excluding land cost of RM35mil. When completed, the six-storey multiplex will have total built-up of about 600,000sq ft. Other components of the complex include educational facilities comprising lecture halls, childcare nursery, and libraries for adults and children. Other features of the project are a banquet hall, a multi-purpose community and recreational hall, a cafeteria and bookshop, hostel and guest apartments. It will also have a three-level car park.

Guneratnam said the convention centre would be dedicated to holistic activities.

“It will have the facilities to host international, regional and national conventions, banquets, seminars and creative performing arts. At the same time, it is devoted to the educational, vocational and spiritual development of this country’s young generation,” he added.

Guneratnam said although the centre would be church property, it was meant for the community at large.

“Other churches can use these facilities. Musicals and other wholesome activities can be held there,” he said.

Jim Guneratnam, administrative executive of Project Calvary Convention Centre technical committee, said the land had been paid for in full.

The Calvary Church of Kuala Lumpur will hold a funfair to raise funds for its RM100mil convention centre.

32 comments:

Anonymous said...

"Why does a church wants to spent $100 million just to built a convention center? That money can be used for uplifting the lifes of those in destitute conditions."

that was what i asked and thought too when one of our catholic church builds 15 life-sized statues at a cost of RM40,000 one. read here:
http://www.penangdiocese.org/pages/posts/life-size-statues-of-the-passion-of-christ-for-st-anne-bm196.php

though the money comes from fund raising and donors, still to me it is a waste to spend so much on statues just to beautify the place or for owner to feel proud.

donors are so willing to donate so much for such thing but not willing to donate so much towards some other causes like for the poor or as you said uplift the life of those destitutes.

*big sigh*

Maverick SM said...

Lucia,

When I wrote this article, it cross my mind that you may differ with my opinion on the ineffectiveness of the application of donated funds used by churches.

I am surprised you too felt the same way I do.

Bob K said...

Sigh .. this is such a classic example of missing the point. :(

Anonymous said...

I used to attend their service in Damansara Heights & personally think Calvary Church is getting too commercialised and getting some of their acts wrong.

What you highlighted here is one example. In another few years, they attempted to re-build their DH center into a multi-level building. That place with narrow streets is already EXTREMELY jammed whenever services are held, causing much hardship to the people living there. What good is a Church when they do not care for other fellow human beings except for their own selfish need? They should have moved out of there instead.

Thank God, their plan was rejected by DBKL!.

Anonymous said...

In reply to Anonymous : that's why THEY ARE moving out of there to Bukit Jalil.

Anonymous said...

Here's a paradox, if Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, etc... can build large monuments for themselves, why not the Christians?

Say a tourist passes by Putrajaya, he will say "Wow such a beautiful mosque" and start taking pictures of it.

Then he may pass by a row of shop houses that has a small sign with "church" on it and won't even give a damn to look at it.

Then he will go back to his country and tell his people, Malaysia is truly a Muslim nation and show all the pictures of the beautiful mosques that were there, no churches at all.

Could this be a "worldly" way for Christians to proclaim, "we exist in Malaysia"?

Whatever their purpose for space ship buildings and statues, this is how it will eventually be interpreted by the majority.

Anonymous said...

I think that many of us are not aware that churches belong to the jurisdiction of the Societies Act of Malaysia. They are also governed by their own constitution and by-laws like every non-profit organisation.

I doubt that the "management" of churches are ineffective or careless. Especially if it involves such large sums and public announcements of their plans because all these would have to be resolved and agreed upon by their own members at general meetings like public-listed Cos. And then submitted to the Registrar of Societies for review and keeping. Then building/renovation and architectural plans submmited to City Hall for approval.

I greatly doubt that churches are at liberty to dispose or use funds at their own discretion.

I don't know if it makes the owner proud but where is the wrong in that? After all the owners of a statue or church building are the members and those who have contributed. Aren't we all proud of our achievements?

Maverick SM said...

1022, I don't know if that's what churches would take pride on, just to spent $100 million to parade a building to prove something. I have always believed that the moneys from members should have to be spent for the work of God, that is, the priority is the poor and the destitute; that's the pride of Christians, not the building, not the face, not the pride, not the ego, not Worldly things! That's what the Bible said.

Julian said...

1022 has a valid point. To deride Calvary solely because they are spending X dollars on something is missing the point, I think. It's like revisitng the now moot point on whether Putrajaya, Sepang F1, the Twin Towers, or KLIA, or the city rail system, or etc. should have been built in the first place.

Why build the Twin Towers instead of, say, building a few shorter towers all over Malaysia instead, one in each city? Will building a few more churches instead of one big church make more sense in that respect?

Or, how about that money being used for other more needy things like fighting poverty? Friends, poverty will always exist no matter how much money is poured into that cause. That's because the root of poverty has nothing to do with money.

My church is also building a new sanctuary, although not anywhere near the RM100 million mark. But I know our land alone costs a little over 10 million. And we've been waiting for this land for years now.

We're not building it because we have 'something to prove' - we're building it because we have a need. We also support many outreach churches around the world in Asia, Europe and South America. We've been supporting them for years, too, from the time we were much smaller. And poorer.

Right now, our growth is limited by space (or do you not have that problem in your church?). And we need to grow in order to support all our outreaches.

I'm not defending Calvary. I have never been there nor do I know anyone there. What I'm saying is bashing them simply because they are spending RM100 million on a new building which they can well afford is ludicrous.

P/S
Sorry for long-winded comment, stumbled onto this blog for the first time. No offence to anyone intended at all. Peace.

Maverick SM said...

Hi Julianne,

I cannot agree with 1022 points: "if Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, etc... can build large monuments for themselves, why not the Christians?"

That's against the teaching of Jesus. We can't delare that because they kill, so Christian kills. Because the other religion accepts prostitution as morally right means Christian must do so.

Putrajaya and cyberjaya are governmental decisions. Churches are God's place for worship and not for showing to others how much money churches had and to parade materialistic worldly affections and desires. Monies collected by churches are for the work of God and not for narcissism, ego and pride. There is nothing to equate Putrajaya vs Churches excesses. If there are so many people who are in destitute conditions and living in poverty, it is absolutely sinful for churches to try to emulate the other "pagans" ... they had forgotten the word of God, i.e. to serve mankind and to do good. The posh building do no good except to project an image to please who knows who. Helping the poor is the wrod of God and read the parables of Jesus - the prodigal son and the 3 child given a dime.

Julian said...

My apologies. When I said that 1022 had a valid point I was referring to this:

"I greatly doubt that churches are at liberty to dispose or use funds at their own discretion."

It's true. The larger the church, the larger the church committee. The money isn't spent on a whim and a fancy.

As for your response:

"We can't delare that because they kill, so Christian kills. Because the other religion accepts prostitution as morally right means Christian must do so."

That's really going off-course - it's a pretty far stretch from my original anology.

"Monies collected by churches are for the work of God and not for narcissism, ego and pride... If there are so many people who are in destitute conditions and living in poverty, it is absolutely sinful for churches to try to emulate the other "pagans"... The posh building do no good except to project an image to please who knows who"

Again, I suspect you may have missed my point. If you reread my earlier comment, I am presenting a viewpoint that some churches do have a valid reason for building something big. An honest, legitimate reason.

Btw, no offence intended... do you go to church? I ask because I'm not sure what cultural/ethnic background you're from - I can't exactly tell from your blog so, again, no offence.

I'm guessing that if you're not part of a church that has grown from a dozen people to almost two thousand over a two decade period, you may not fully grasp why church building projects are needed.

Peace.

Maverick SM said...

Hi Julian, my apologise as I could be construing something you didn't meant. Sorry, and I agree with your clarification. My contention is that monies collected by churches should be put to good use as enunciated in the Bible, that is, to help mankind, particularlu those poor and destiture. However, if you look in KL, there are just too many churches who spent lavishly on renovations and neautification. While it is not wrong to do so, the lavishness is morally wrong.

BTW, I am a Christian and I believe in Jesus Christ.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps I've failed to make my point when I brought in other religions...

I see this type of thing as in the old testament as when God had a chosen people. In the midst of war, rising and falling nations and powers and other societies building great temples and places of worship for themselves, God called on Solomon to build a temple, that was magnificent, also expensive!

Yes we can argue that "that's Old Testament", or "that's before Jesus came and did His ministry". But that's beside the point.

And just to side track a little... I for one do not claim that the effort to distribute wealth and to close the gap between rich and poor is irrelevant and unimportant. It may seem hopeless but I feel that something should be done about it. However, remember Jesus came to give hope to EVERYONE, not just the destitute and impoverished but to the rich, high society fellas as well (whom I'm not one). Of course Jesus in His wisdom also wanted to preach on the "love of money" and how that will close the way for the wealthy to enter His kingdom, but to rescue the marginalised from the current situation was not the crux of his message.

Back to my point about places of worship. God asked the Levites, Solomon, Nehemiah to build/re-build places of worship for Him. And these were not small projects. All of God's people came and GAVE what they had to the building of the temple in Nehemiah. God honoured Noah when he obeyed His command to build an ark but not when they tried to build the Babel tower.

So my point is that God honours any place of worship built for Him, as long as it is out of obedience and given our "first fruit", our best offering and sacrifice.

Anonymous said...

I thought this article was interesting because of the $$$-value it involved and the what the public might view it as.

It's not the first time I've heard of a church raising money for its own building.

When I read of other churches doing it was my concern too of $$$ and wisdom of using it. Even within the church there were members who strongly disagreed and left because they believed it was for pride and an unwise use of $$$.

When I read this article I read no where that it was to boost morale and ego for the church body.

But I do know at the same time of an under-current called materialism that has brought down powerful nations and even churches. And it is real too.

Perhaps our experiences in life do not jive well with our experiences with what God's Word has said. And they often do not because of the sinful nature in us. So then we do not see eye-to-eye when suddenly a big church, that is associated with lots of $$$ announces it's plans.

Maverick SM said...

Hi 1022,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Firstly, this article is about Christians and Christianity. Therefore we are not here to discuss socio-political responsibility such as sharing of wealth and equitable wealth distribution which are for each good government to ensure natural justice and harmony.

God called on Solomon to build a temple, and Solomon built a magnificent temple to glorify His name. But he is King Solomon and he uses his wealth to do so. In the present case, the committee is using the monies contributed by church members to built a convention center that cost $100 million. Ordinary convention center that can fulfill the objectives would have cost nothing more than $15-20 million. Why spent $100 million to have a posh building? For what? To boost the ego, pride and to tell the world that christians have no money to help those poor because they had spent them on that building? Remember, the total cost including land and professional fees and regulatory contributions will be about $150 million and thereafter, the cost of maintenance and upkeep will be behemoth. Is that the way monies collected from members considered wisely utilised?

[Quote] God asked the Levites, Solomon, Nehemiah to build/re-build places of worship for Him. [Disagree]. God asked t build the places of worship for the people such that they had a place to worship and gather.


[Quote] When I read of other churches doing it was my concern too of $$$ and wisdom of using it. Even within the church there were members who strongly disagreed and left because they believed it was for pride and an unwise use of $$$. [Agree] We can observed the last 2-3 decades how church members were split because of $$$. If you had been a committee member of churches such as Imbi Gospel Hall and others too, you will know why Christians themselves could not agree on issues regarding the Church expenditures and expansion plan. God doesn't need us to boast and to show-off. If you go to the smaller towns and villages, you will find that they are congregating at old dilapidated huts and see their joy. Why can't some of the monies in some rich churches be used to assist these old dilapidated building upkeep. I was once in Kuala Kangsar Gospel Hall and the church members were congregating at an old and extremely dilapidated hut; yet we see Ipoh Gospel Hall being renovated at tens of millions and Imbi Gospel Hall expansion plan in tens of millions. Is this what Christians are suppose to be and what Churches should be doing to the monies they had collected? I don't know and I can't be the judge; God will. But I am absolutely disgusted by such acts.

Thanks 1022 and I surely appreciate your frank and direct opinion. God bless you and Julian Wong too.

Julian said...

Hi, it's me again. Thank you for your well-wishes and blessings.

You mentioned some specifics in your previous comment:
"Ordinary convention center that can fulfill the objectives would have cost nothing more than $15-20 million. Why spent $100 million to have a posh building?"

I am curious. How did you arrive at that "$15-20 million" estimate? Fyi, I am not from either the building or construction industries and thus my question may come across as being a little silly although the answer may be plainly obvious to you. If so, I beg your indulgence.

Thank you in advance.

Maverick SM said...

Hi Julian,

I am a civil engineer and had been in the building construction industry for the last 25 years. We had built or tendered for projects involving lectures theatres for universities that cost nothing more than RM10 million, Assembly halls that cost approx RM2 millions, Churches for approx RM10-15 million, etc. Assuming the convention center proposed is a built up area of 10,000 sq ft (approx 2,000 people) and by ball park estimates it is estimated to cost RM150-200 per sq ft, therefore it should cost RM15-20mil. That would of course exclude land cost which in this similar case, it was reported that the RM100 mil exclude land cost of approx RM20 mil. Of course if the architect decides to use materials that are imported and expensive that it would increase the price. For example, the convention center in KLCC cost some RM500 million. It could housed more than 5,000 -1o,ooo participants and have many other facilities such as public galleries, promotion houses, display areas, shops, etc, etc.

However, to estimate the cost, we would need the drawings and the bill of quantities developed by the project architect and quantity surveyors. NO two building can cost the same; we are just using anologous estimating method. There are many other methods. More details are required to give a better estimate. The above are based on heuristics and analogies.

Julian said...

Ah, I see. Thank you for the explanation from an engineering perspective.

As mentioned earlier, my church is currently building a new sanctuary. So, going by your benchmark, if we fail to keep our costs under RM15-20 million, would that then make us an irresponsible church as far as Kingdom finances are concerned?

Maverick SM said...

Julian, the costs depend on the size and quality of finishes. Remember the words I used: LAVISHNESS! Convention center and Sanctuary are not the same elements. In Sanctuary, there may be some features needed to resemble a classical Roman architecture which can be costly; the consideration is not to be extremely posh and expensive; it still can be resembling the architectural intent, but unfortunately, human craves for more than just a need; they wanted something, something that was not paid by the individual themselves; by others, and as long as others pay for it, they won't mind spending it.

Julian said...

heh, ok, chill dude... just testing you. :P

Speaking of lavishness, my original point still stands: who defines what is lavish and what isn't?

Is a Toyota Camry lavish? Or only Ferraris and above? How about BMW?

Likewise, who defines when exactly a church has spent too much on any given project?

Tough call, isn't it? :) Anyway, let's leave it at that.

Peace.

Maverick SM said...

Thanks Julian, I thought this was a discourse, a learning exchange. I tried to put forth logical prudence; didn't expect that it was conjured as sparring sessions.

Lavishness will be judged by the ONE we leaned, the Almighty, for all will face judgment on the final day. The church can make their own discretion and others can pass comments or make suggestions or whatever to be called. As Christian and church keepers, the administrators knows their duty and responsibility and they can make any decision that they deemed fit. Bye [period]

Anonymous said...

dear all,

i know i'm one year late in commenting.

i have been in calvary church for 20+ years and i'm actively serving.

i was very disgruntled and unhappy regarding the large amount spent on the building of the church.

our sr pastor tried to explain that there's a difference between extravagance and excellence. i didn't agree with that sermon when it came to the convention centre.

a year down the road, i have now decided that i am unworthy to judge. For all i know, God might really want the church to do this.

I'm accountable to God. Our pastors are accountable to God. not to us. therefore, i have chosen to pray for the building.

In Christ

Anonymous said...

I think is non of the public's business how a church is handle, the church leaders are only accountable to God and to their members.. no one else. MIND YOUR OWN BUSINES. DON'T BE A KEPOHCI. Jesus said there will always be poor people (Matthew 26:11). Honestly I believe we have made eradicating poverty as the main or sole there of the church, we have lost China to communism because of this. I see this project as a reason for the Christians to be blessed.

Anonymous said...

I think is non of the public's business how a church is handle, the church leaders are only accountable to God and to their members.. no one else. MIND YOUR OWN BUSINES. DON'T BE A KEPOHCI. Jesus said there will always be poor people (Matthew 26:11). Honestly I believe we have made eradicating poverty as the main or sole there of the church, we have lost China to communism because of this. I see this project as a reason for the Christians to be blessed.

Anonymous said...

Hi.. I stumbled upon this blog and thought you had a pretty interesting discussion =)
I have also realised that this discussion opened in 2006, which is about a year and half away.To be honest, I am curious to know if you may have changed your mind on your initial argument?

Anonymous said...

Please do not use anonymous as your identity unless you do fear of being commented. It is good if we can respectfully address one another.

The church is not standalone. She is part and parcel of the community. The comments are all valid, sincere and thoughtful. No malice and bad intention. So by asking others (brothers and sisters in the body of Christ) to MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS... is like denouncing the Church who is made up of the body of believers.

What Maverick has shared could come to past but do PRAY that whoever is responsible for Calvary Convention Centre that the greater MAN in them shall prevail against the small man at work. May the leadership of the Calvary Church live ONLY with the justification of Christ not the justification of man. May they be constantly reminded that the "Fountain Church" is by testimonies of those who could witness true spiritual transformation. Not self proclamation.

Maverick SM said...

Mission OTM,

Thanks for your support and understanding. I believed Christians can understand what I said but those who aren't Christian thinks they know better.

Anonymous said...

Hi Maverick, don't know you but I agree with your thoughts on this and I find ppl like Anonymous 3.52pm very childish especially since he/she is using immature statements like 'Mind your own business. Don't be a kepochi' - in capslock may I add.
Furthermore, Anonymous's statement on church leaders being only accountable to God and their members are far from wrong when it comes to Calvary Church, sad to say. Many things done by the senior pastor and board of deacons of this church were not revealed to the church members. For more info on this, pls read calvarytoday.blogspot.com

Maverick SM said...

Hi Anon 11:52pm,

Thanks for your support and may God bless Calvary Church.

Anonymous said...

Peace to all, Brothers & Sisters...

I am not from Calvary Church, but I am a Gentile, and proud to be called one due to my very own choice I make.

Please do not argue amongst yourselves, (the Christians) in this project. Look at the Non-Christians, when there are projects, they do support, by donation and prayers. No one is talking about the $$$ when it comes to God's House. It's pride and a sense of praising God as well when we see such beautiful blessings on earth.

We are making ourselves a laughing stock to the nation if we fight amongst ourselves instead of blessing this project.

I just came across a Gentile who was laughing at our Convention Centre, insulting the works and claiming it is dumb, and this makes me sad cause I am a Gentile as well, with a heart for all nations. Is this how we want to agree with Satan? Satan tries to devour our mind, please focus on the growth of Christianity instead. Its about the hereafter, not the world.

Think again Christians... Love yourselves! Love God!

Anonymous said...

I'm the kind of guy who enjoys to taste hot things. Currently I am fabricating my private solar panels. I'm doing it all by myself without the aid of my men. I am utilizing the net as the only way to acheive this. I saw a really brilliant site which explains how to build solar panels and so on. The web site explains all the steps required to solar panel construction.

I'm not really sure about how accurate the info given there is. If some guys over here who have xp with these works can have a look and give your feedback in the page it would be great and I'd really appreciate it, because I truly lav solar panel construction.

Tnx for reading this. U guys are the best.

Anonymous said...

let's no one play the roll of God, judge not in our action, thinking and so forth...senior pastor guna did mention in a Q and A " in order to be noticed we need to be Big" meaning Big building. think again...many big so called churhes in europe but is God really there?
sundays after sundays we heard all preachings related to giving more money to build that building. Charismatic churches should preach deliverance, healing, transforming lives and more...that what people need now in our society... RM100m or more will build 50 more churhes catches more fish in many nets rather than one. people may be impressed by the building but will they commit their lives to Christ?m