Wednesday, December 26, 2007

Ms. Destiny vs Mr. Effort

I used to ponder over things, over my achievements and failures, and why am I not rich, neither did I inherit wealth because my father is not Lim Goh Tong. Did you, too, had pondered?

Was it effort that made Lim Goh Tong rich? Was it effort that made Pak Lah a prime minister? Was it because Khairy was an Oxford graduate or is it because he is the son-in-law of a PM that made him what he is today, a jobless man but worth hundreds of millions? Is it not the fact that Azlan Shah was born in a royal family tree that he ever had a chance to be king? Is it because Syed Mokhtar was a Muslim and consequently a Bumiputera that he was privileged to procure benefits accorded by the NEP, or was it that he work hard and efforts, together with his sacrifices, sufferings, sacrifices and good luck that made him a billionaire? Did Dato Haniff b. Abd Aziz, Datuk Syed Azman b. Syed Ibrahim, Razali Ali, SM Nasimuddin SM Amin, became multi-millionaires because of their efforts, acumens and entrepreneurial spirit or good luck that made them filthy rich and prosperous?

K. Jeya Thilaga could not pay the rental (RM380/month) of a walk-up flat at Taman Alam Megah and was evicted by her landlord. She and her 11-year-old daughter and her sister-in-law’s 15-year-old girl had nowhere to go and thus had to put up at the side of the staircase and sleep on mats. She works as a contract worker at a factory earning RM420 a month, and is an asthmatic. Why is she poor and a destitute lady? Was she born to be poor or was it because it was luck?

So, if a person is poor, was it luck or lack of effort? Or, were they all destined?

Is it true that the world could not be known by our pure reason, beyond sense and unthinkable? Well, I have no answer.

Just wanted to share an essay by Lieh-tzu entitled "Effort and Destiny" in which the passage reads:

Mr. Effort said to Ms Destiny: "Your achievements are not equal to mine."

"Pray, what do you achieve in the working of things," replied Destiny, "that you would compare yourself with me?"

"Why," said Effort, "the length of man's life, his measure of success, his rank and his wealth, are all things which I have the power to determine."

To this, Destiny made reply: "Peng Tsu's wisdom did not exceed that of Yao and Shun, yet he lived to the age of 800. Yen Yuan's ability was not inferior to that of the average man, yet he died at the age of 32. ... If these results are compassed by your effort, how is it that you allotted long life to Peng Tsu and an untimely death to Yen Yuan; that you awarded discomfiture to the sage and success to the impious, humiliation to the wise man and high honours to the fool, poverty to the good and wealth to the wicked?"

"If, as you say, " rejoined Effort, "I have really no control over events, is it not, then, to your management that things turn out as they do?"

Destiny replied: "The very name Destiny shows that there can be no question of management in the case. When the way is straight, I push on; when it is crooked, I let be. Old age and early death, failure and success, high rank and humble station, riches and poverty - all these come naturally and of themselves. Of their ultimate cause, I am ignorant, how could it be otherwise?"


Another story from Lieh-tzu:

Mr. Yien, of the Chi State, was holding an ancestral banquet in his hall to which a thousand guests were bidden. As he sat in their midst, many came up to him with presents of fish and game. Eyeing them approvingly, he exclaimed with unction:

"How generous is Almighty God to man! he makes the five kinds of grain to grow, and creates the finny and the featured tribes, especially for our benefit."

All Mr. Tien's guests applauded this sentiment to the echo; but the 12-year-old son of Mr. Pao, regardless of seniority, came forward and said:

"You are wrong, my lord. All the living creatures in the universe stand in the same category as ourselves, and one is of no greater intrinsic value than another. It is only by reason of size, strength, or cunning that some particular species gains the mastery, or that one preys upon another. None of them are produced in order to subserve the uses of others. Man catches and eats those that are fit for food; but how can it be maintained that God creates them expressly for man's use? Mosquitoes and gnats suck man's blood, and tigers and wolves devour his flesh; but we do not therefore assert that God created man expressly for mosquitoes and gnats, or to provide food for tigers and wolves."

Does this illustrate that Nature is not benevolent?

Source: Lionel Giles, Taoist Teaching from the Book of Lieh Tzu, London, 1912, pp119

Buddhist Quote

The nature of the Real Suchness is not being, not non-being, not not being, not not non-being, nor both being and non-being. It is not one, not many, not not one, not not many, nor both one and many."

Do you understand? Do you not understand? Do you not not understand? Do you not not not understand? If so, then I believed you all must have understood what it means!

Lastly, but not the least, I like to share a poem written by someone who called himself 'Sharing'. He gave me permission to name it, and I shall call it: 'The Poetry of Nihilism'.

Million & Billion words of wonder
when thousand and hundred are minimum.
All start with zero when man come
and same zero to bring with last bye-bye to go.
Slipping through the hands!

24 hours a day
seven days a week
52 weeks a year
Slipping through with many to miss!

A bowl or two a meal
a loaf or two a day.
A Palace of elegance
A hut of minimum
The wonderest, the bed of 6x6!
not until the stomach is fixed.
The bed and the stomach the best places to rest!
Dream with no limitation
Stomach with easy satisfaction
The bottom line of all!

The dream needs imagination
with wisdom to hold
knowledge to go!
Or dreams with snoozes
or dreams with surf or soars!
Sweet dreams - a wisdom of most!
A life with Rhythms to go!



43 comments:

Anonymous said...

Earning RM420, K. Jeya Thilaga are suppose to be compensate by welfare department as being the poor. Is it because she don't know there is such an department exist in Malaysia? Or "somebody" denied her rights?

Maverick SM said...

Moo_t,

She may not know; but is MIC didn't know her plight, of their very own, which they claim to represent, then what's MIC for?

I'm sure there are many MIC members who knows she exist with this plight... and would have brought her plight to MIC for assistance. It must mean that, Hindraf had caused the attention, and therefore, MIC councillor had now so acted to assist her.

Anonymous said...

Bottom Lines??
==============
Son-in-Law of PM - a millionaire of many where!
Azlan Shah of the Royal - a king of some where!
Syed Mokhtar, a Muslim, a Bumiputra - a billionaire from no where?
.......

Will Son-in-Law, a millionaire?
Or, any Azlan Shah, a King?
Or, any any Muslim or Bumiputra, a billionaire?

Why a difference?
The bottom lines that spell!!
__________________________________
Layman taking the Buddha Quote
__________________________________
You see me?
============
The front side?
How about the back side?
Or all the sides?
I still got something inside!!

Want to praise, please in front!
Want to kick, tricky at the back!
Want to hint, try right or left!
Want be friends, from ALL sides!
See the walks and talks!

Sharing chains of words
-with lights of Maverick, "The Poetry of Nihilism"
-with those dreaming in day times, "Drunken-Flesh, Sleeping-Corpse"
-with filled stomach and wisdom to work, "From nowhere to somewhere and everywhere"!

Excuse me if I snooze!
"Maverick drop a jade in the pond!"
To take the jade or the pond?
___________________
P.S. What is the Buddha Quote in original Chinese?

Anonymous said...

Mav, comparing Buddha's teachings with "Revealed Religion" is like comparing a Porsche to a Proton. For the common man, a Proton is satisfying enough.

Buddha knew the inherent weakness of Monotheism, how people can be influenced/manipulated into mindless actions on account of its doctrines(and dogmas).

The Tao Te Ching is another Gem that few understands because it always take a profound person to understand. This has been made easier to understand :
http://oaks.nvg.org/re3ra3.html

Men with wisdom do not need to seek "God" but to seek the Truth, the nature of our Being and its phenomenal existence. This requires personal effort and an acute mind to contemplate about life.

The easy and common way OTOH, is of course, to use groupie orientated faith - something that is ever tainted by politics and culture.

Purple~MushRooM said...

I also ponder... how come I am not Paris Hilton?
How nice if I am Paris Hilton. No need to work a single day in my life and gets to pick anything in Gucci and LV stores without the need to even look the price tag.
Ya.. why ah? :) Can someone tell me why I am not Paris Hilton?

Anonymous said...

wits0,

Can I summarized your points as:?

Buddha to Revealed Religion
a wisdom to doctrine
only limited by one learning and thoughts
not the rules of how others had taught.
One by the wisdom of oneself
The other with the rules of others!

One needs thought.
Another to be taught
with possible political and cultural knots!

A Porsche or Porsches?

Anonymous said...

K. Jeya Thilaga works as a contract worker at a factory earning RM420 a month, and is an asthmatic.

Didn't Sami the Great proclaimed last week that the average Malaysian Indian is getting a salary of RM1,500 to RM4,000? K. Jeya Thilaga should be kicking herself for voting that big idiot's MIC into power

Anonymous said...

Can someone tell me WHY I am not Paris Hilton?

Because the SKY
is so HIGH
and you get to marry a SAKAI
in JULY

Anonymous said...

If going by true Buddist teachings and attainment,

Earthly urges such as luxury items, unnecessary argument owing to vanity etc are not significant to be 'trapped' in.

Instead, pursue of inner peace and balance, self revelations, charity and helping other deserving beings are the focus.

But, in our society ruled by the opposite, how are we to blend in and not 'trapped'?

lucia said...

mental jog

oh my! mave is getting very philosiphical these days... esp. now with sharing around and wits0 joining in. :)

yes sure i do wonder a lot how come i was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth, how come i did not grew up with the body of beyonce and so on. then i heard a voice high above said "what/who you are now is your fate, your destiny" so what to do? got to accept what/who i am now. :)

about the case of k. jeya thilaga, instead of relying on the gomen, perhaps some NGOs should step up to help... like our church's st vincent de paul society. in fact about 2 months ago, in penang, there was about a similiar case of a family who had their electricity cut off and i and my members of this society step up to help them. we pay the electricity bill for them and we 'adopt' them where we give cash aid and ration to them monthly.

Unknown said...

mav - great write up on the intricacies of life. It is always good to think and reflect but must do so with positiveness - otherwise we may get lost, disenchanted with life and adopt a antisocial personality disorder :-) not saying you of course!

i use to reflect a lot until i discover krisnaji (http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/) not that i dont reflect anymore now but i am getting tired... half way to the other side :-)

not that i want to bastard my side but i tried to pen my thoughts on life esp about religion in http://www.agnostic-lor.blogspot.com/
until i ran out of steam.. will try harder .. on of these days!

cheers

warrior2 said...

You are who and what you are!Nothing more and nothing less.

Why are you who you are now?

Why couldnt Thilaga afford a roof (a flat ofRM380/month or a room at RM150/month?)above her head? Why would she rent a flat for RM380when her pay is just RM420?

I cant answer why she is who she is and her life is how it is now, I dont have an answer why a person is so and so and why his/her is so.

And I certaintly dont know how I become who and what i am now and why my life is like this today!

Maverick SM said...

Dear Commentators,

I am sick now, and apologise for not responding to all the comments. I will do so tomorrow.

Anonymous said...

Why is Monotheism regarded as unsatisfactory? It has much to do with fideism. It is fideism.

fideism:

/fidi-iz’m/

• noun the doctrine that knowledge depends on faith or revelation.

— ORIGIN from Latin fides ‘faith’.

That has long been debunked long ago by Scientific progress on the material plane.

Spiritual knowledge does not depend on the fatalistic recognition of any all-powerful Deity. "God" is a Concept and as concepts there're always contradictions and conflicts related to all conceptions because concepts are dependent on the intellect all men have varying quality of intellect.

If some men suffers while others don't, doesn't that logically suggest a God that is unkind and unfair?

Anonymous said...

agnos,

Do you think the sea will dry
Or the sun will die
Or the sky will sink
or the Earth will lie?
They are permanent at least as long as your life!

When taking a boat down the stream
Do you think it will stop or sail?
The boat sail when your heart is along
or the sail stop when stop in your mind!

Take the breath of nature, the air remind you of your life!
Take something to remind you of your life than questioning the impermanency of life!

Excuse me for knocking onto your life!
krisnaji or Tao into your life?
Or something has gone into your life?
Your are in OUR side!

multidimid said...

Maverik, Is it Destiny over Effort or Fate?
Whenever you catch yourself falling in a mood in which you feel inferior, look at the list of your abilities and accomplishments. What difference does it made if the few mundane achievements that are shared by many others are in no way unique? Surely you have yearnings that cannot be expressed and your destiny involves more that.
Remember that in your own uniqueness, it is futile to compare yourself to others for in so doing you try to EMULATE qualities that are theirs, and to that extent deny your own miraculous being and vision. Otherwise there will be no end. Take it for granted that your life IS important and use those talents to the best of your ability, knowing in them lies your own individual FULFILLMENT.
In each life you choose and create your own settings or environments; and in this one you chose your parents and whatever childhood incidents that came within your experience. You wrote the script. Like a true absent minded professor, the conscious self forgets all this, however, so when tragedy appears in the script, difficulty or challenges, the conscious self looks for someone or something to BLAME.
In an accidental universe in which you believe you live, then it is a dire and foreboding universe, indeed. In such a universe the individual has little hope for he will return to the nonexistence that he came from, the individual has no control over his DESTINY, and can be swept aside at any point by random FATE, over which he has no recourse.
All of this can be related to ordinary life. Whenever you think that you have a headache, simply because you have a headache; or you bump into a door; or you have an accident simply because you happen to be in a particular place at a particular time; whenever you feel yourself powerless, then you think accidents JUST happen and that you have no control over them.
The only answer is to realize that you form physical events, individually and en mass; you FORM and CREATE the physical reality that you are experiencing.

Anonymous said...

Well said, Seth, via Multidimid! :)

Unknown said...

hi mav - hope will recover soon.

hi miultidimid - i agree with the first half of your statements but i have doubts to the rest.

You said: "In each life you choose and create your own settings ...you chose your parents...."

i think we can choose a lot of things in life but not necessary will we get it and as Mav say why wasnt i born into LGT family etc... some other may choose to be a doctor but if he/she is born into a poor family who is unable to support their education it will still come to naught. Chinese has a saying - "yau lan, mo lek" - have the will but not the strength. So while one may choose to study hard for a better life one has to take into considerations the external factors that can actually shape / alter their life. but that doesnt mean we should live life waiting for the rabbit under the tree.

You seemed to be suggesting that we can determine what we want to be which is not entirely false only thing is even if I am determine to be born into LGT family there is no way i can ensure that will happen - so we cant actually choose to determine certain things in life.

You further states that "you form physical events, individually and en mass; you FORM and CREATE the physical reality that you are experiencing." - true in a sense akin to you reap what you sow but then it goes against what you stated above that is "you choose and create your own settings" for eg after an incident i may have adverted a fight with a bully by "choosing" to apologizing and walking away but if the bully insisted on whacking me then my "choosing" to form and create an amicable experiencing will come to naught. Again it is my willful choosing against external factors which is not within my control.

Life is such that we must have confident that we have the right to choose but we must also be aware that there will invariably be external factors which is going to either help us or hinder us in our journey.

Anonymous said...

Agnos, I used to feel the same way about Seth's statement which Mulidimid probably took from either, "The Eternal Validity of your Soul" or "The Individual and The Nature of Mass Consciousness" by Jane Roberts.

Unless I'm mistaken, Seth elaborated further in the second book mentioned that life (being a cooperative venture)requires a certain degree of 'agreement' from others for some changes to be effected.

Other attributes already put into place like your physique etc are unlikely to be changeable by the Mind's effort within this lifetime, I expect :D.

It can't be disputed that the human condition is wrought by the human mindset. The evidence is everywhere like regarding why Bolehland is unsatisfactory because of its "collective outlook" claimed by its governance hell bent on Majoritism as a singular virtue and getting blind in the process.

Maverick SM said...

Sharing,

I know the Quote in Chinese; I can speak but can't write.

wits0,

Thanks for the link and I admire your understanding of Revealed Religion. Referring to your 2nd comments on monotheism and fidelism, I think I don't agree. There are plenty of philosophical thoughts from those ancient "Wise men" who acknowledged the metaphysics and it's relationship to mankind. God can't be blame for every failures of life.

Purple~Mushroom,

You are not Paris Hilton but you're Shanghai Shangrilah; still as much equal!!!

Msiaman,

The main issue isn't about buddhism; but about destiny vs effort.

Lucia,

The MIC Councillor Maniam had help her; we got to let MIC do some good to redeem themselves as the general election is near. Kita kena tolong Samy...

Agnos,

I agree with your thoughts; and thanks for the link. Ya, I visit your blogs too.

Warrior2,

You are same like me...mong, mong, cha, cha!!!

Multidimid,

You are right in accordance to the doctrine of pragmatism and reality; that is, we have no choice but to accept what we already are, and do our best to make it better.

But, none of us chose our parents; we were born destined.

Though human must put in efforts to initiate change to their lives, to strive for betterment, but it wasn't the case all the time. For example, my sisters at the age of 14 had to stop schooling and work as a maid to contribute to the family's physiological survival needs. They were top students in schools but had to stop schooling. So, would you consider that they created their own settings and environment?

I think I agree with Agnos in his 2nd comment here.

Maverick SM said...

wits0,

You seems to read a lot on Chinese philosophy. Would you like to share more with us by contributing some articles for me to post?

Anonymous said...

Tao Te Ching (Dao De Jing)
----
A. Referred by wits0, http://oaks.nvg.org/re3ra3.html (1958-1963)
B. From another: http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html (1995)
C: From the latest : 71 Chapters each with a Title (after revisions).

A & B. Both are in 81 chapters without a Title for each. Taking Chapter 1 as an example:


道 可 道 , 非 常 道 ;名 可 名 , 非 常 名 。 无 名 , 天 地 之 始 ; 有 名 , 万 物 之 母 。故 常 无 欲 , 以 观 其 妙 ; 常 有 欲 , 以 观 其 徼 。 此 两 者 同 出 而 异 名 ,
同 谓 之 玄 , 玄 之 又 玄 , 众 妙 之 门 。

A.
THE way that can be told of is hardly an eternal, absolute, unvarying one;
The name that can be coded and given is no absolute name.
Heaven and earth sprang from something else: the bright nameless;
The named is but the said mother that rears the ten thousand creatures of heaven and earth, each after its kind.
He that rids himself of base desire can see the secret essences;
He that didn't and reached high being, he can see outcomes.
Still the two are the same; the secret and its manifestations came from the same ground, the same mould, but anyway sound different -
They are given different names where they appear.
They can both be called the cosmic mystery, awesome deep.
Or rather more secret than so-called mystery.

There is the deeper mystery: the gate and doorway all hidden essences issued from: all such subleties.
And the subtle, mysterial opening homewards.
Call it the door mystery or golden secret of all life.

B. The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.

C. Introduction

(For the Saint,) WAY to WALK, not the Normal WAY that anyone Walks.
Fame for Him to be Called (gained afterwards), not Normal Fame with definition fixed.

World started with No Name
Substances come to recognition by having Names.(so, names give birth to all substances!)
Without Definite desire, Observation wander into Fantasy
With Definite desire, Observation goes within a Boundary.
Both based on "desire" to learn but ended in different Terms!
Both are Mystery to be observed, with Mystery among Mystery, it (the desire) opens the doors of Fantasy!

==============================================================================================
Difficulties of Translation. especially to catch the meanings!!
---
This illustrates the difficulties of translation which requires a good understanding or interpretation of the Original and the one to which it is going to translate. Especially when the original is something of more than 2000 years ago with a big differences in life and the use of words with meanings that could also vary a lot.
Comparatively speaking being a Chinese with a profound study of the Chinese Language and literature and living experience, Dr Lim should be in a better position to do it than those otherwise. However, if a good analysis on the historical background of Lao Tzu to provide a better understanding of the purpose and reason of writing, it is not really easy to catch the essential points.
A Chinese word can be a noun, a verb as well as adjective or....This adds another difficult in reading, especially in old days, punctuations were not used!

Anyone reading A, B, C above will come to the same understanding of Chapter 1?

Buddhist (Zen) has similar quote on the the exploration of "realizing" things!! Where the Chinese Buddhism was also heavily affected by Chinese Philosophy. But, using different terms but meaning very similar!

Same or even Bigger Problems for Malaysian with Quran?
---
The reminds me to imagine of even greater problem when one don't speak the language and have no living experience of the place, or, if understand well the background of that some 2000 years ago for writing the Quran. I wonder how far the Quran in Malaysia can stick to the Original meanings or purposes. Or, those reading the Arabic version can get a full picture or the right essential points and meanings of the original? Such that Christian and Muslim were from the same source, the differences are quite many!

Chinese Philosophies are many many. However, due to the above, a lot of hidden "treasures" are still awaiting exploration! Since a great number are like "algebra", it can be applied through the time, I think!!

Similar philosophy could be found later. When they were written directly into English, they were more easily being understood by the West. So, a lot know what the later came out but not something in China a much longer time ago!

I dropped my stone into Maverick's pond for a Jade to come!!

Anonymous said...

Destiny vs Mr. Effort?

The title is misleading for it implies an "either or" state. Life is a combination with some degree and potential for change along the way.

Mav, it's less imponderable to say that we create our own reality within and outside(1.e., b4 birth) this existence than to believe in the "either or" over this matter.

The available options are set by previous and prevailing Karma. Karma wrt human beings are basically resultant actions individually and en masse. It is continuously being made. We are co-creator of this Reality. Believing in the (simplistic and escapist?) fatalism of being owned by an almighty creator God will not alter this.

Unknown said...

hi wits0 - i share your view that believing in an almighty creator would not solve or alter any problem we face becos (now this will sound blasphemous - please do not read if you are easily offended) we should question first whether there is realy a creator/god out there.

on the other hand, when you say that "The available options are set by previous and prevailing Karma" - then you are in essence saying that our life is predefined by what we done in our past life (does one exist?) or during our upbringing.

It is again another form of dogmatism and is again equivalent to subscribing to escapism.

Thus believing in Karma or believing in creator/god is essentially surrendering our free will to a theory which has no empirical data to back with neither any physical substance that we can experience via our five senses.

Sharing - i share your insight into the translation issue but i would like to add that, with due respect to Dr Lim being a highly educated prof and a natural speaker of chinese he may not be able to translate the essence of Tao Te Ching either.

Remember the story of the Zen Master Nan-in and his cup of tea to the the professor of zen?

i have always regretted not being able to read chinese and have to rely on translated text to read chinese philosophy like the toa te ching, lao tsu, sun tzu etc...

i always have doubts on the accuracy of the translation esp when it was translated by gewilo whose native language wasnt chinese but after a while i just kind of accept it becos sometimes the translator just translate the wordings and sometime they try to pen the essence of what they read using their own experience of life as the interpretor.

it is good and bad for readers like me, for on one hand i can see another dimension of the original and on another i can arrive on my own conclusion by comparing the words for words translation with the words to essence translation.

after all, to understand a highly subjective subject the final interpretation is still one own self as was illustrated by the many gurus of zen and buddism.

remember the Sixth Patriarch of Ch'an Hui Neng - an illiterate who was enlightened just by listening to a recitation of the Diamond sutra?

lastly, mav humble apology if i have diverted and kinda hijack your original writing.

Anonymous said...

[It is again another form of dogmatism and is again equivalent to subscribing to escapism.

Thus believing in Karma or believing in creator/god is essentially surrendering our free will to a theory which has no empirical data to back with neither any physical substance that we can experience via our five senses.]

Whether it becomes a form of dogmatism or not is also dependent on the predisposing capacity of the subject to understand the Laws of Nature, which in this case of Karma includes the cyclical laws governing the change of seasons too, besides encompassing human volitions. There's this book, "Gems of Buddhist Wisdom" available at the Bricksfield vihara that has enumerated the various types of Karmas.

Acknowledging that the seasons changes according to a certain set cyclical pattern is hardly any tyranny or disadvantage imposed upon us. That gravity exists and a leap from a high rise is detrimental to one's health also is not really a tyranny upon our consciousness and free will. ;)

If you choose to view natural laws as impediment to the extent that it impedes your free will, that is a personal choice not its true function. But as Seth puts it, "Both men and molecules dwell in a field of probabilities and their paths are not determined The vast reality of probabilities makes the existence of free will possible." This does not exclude certain governing Laws of Nature and Volition however.

The splitting of the atom in modern particle accelerator resulted in the dscovery of many subatomic particles by Science. Some of which zips in and out of existence and can only be said to exist by inference. I suppose this is the mostest empirical thing we can bring to the physical world.

Science in its present form seems unlikely to prove to you that you have a psyche and the Inner Reality of your being ; its physical instruments are far too crude and forged in a 3D world. How can they probe outside this physical reality? It's hard to demand hard nose empirical proof in such a situation. Ditto Karma, in this sense. :D

Anonymous said...

agnos,

Thanks for your Jade to come!

Chinese Philosophy or old literature, or, Poem in many way are "Zen".
For easy indexing to memorize and explore.

Chinese Philosophy is to understand
and relate the factors in life with elements in each
for the harmony and improvement to come.
Human and the Environment to start
Human with rational and emotional to derive.
Then, environment......

If you know how many chess are there,
the rules and regulations to play,
then, you can be master of the chess instead of the chess!

Following a Chinese Poem to share:

庐山烟雨浙江潮,未到千般恨不消。及至归来无一事,庐山烟雨浙江潮

translation:

Foggy Rain in Luoshan & tides in Zhejiang
If not seen much regret
After the visits,
(still) Foggy rain in Luoshan, tides in Zhejiang!

(Tides in Zhejiang refers to tides at the exit of Qian Tang River)

They don't change!
Key point is to see (to visit) or to understand (by realizing)!

Dao De Jing translated by Dr Lim has defects but he was not Lao Tzu and not in that time to understand. He has done his best! At least People know there is Dao De Jing to explore and more....

A translation can be presented with a herb in a fancy jewelry box. Who is the main character could has lost?

Cheer!

Unknown said...

hi wits0 - if you are explaining karma based on cause and effect alone then i fully agree with you.

But karma the word is a religious/philosophical concept and when used it invariably will involved other concepts like reincarnation, samsara etc.. which is way beyond the human comprehension of the cause and effect theory.

And since science is yet to prove that psyche and the Inner Reality of our being exist - then it doesnt.

Again, i would dare to venture that whatever our five senses doesn't register it doesn't exist until proven otherwise.

Sharing - nice poem and i totally concur.

there was once when i was in Batu Hijau (an island near Lombok, sulawesi) sitting at a deserted beach watching the orange sun down - with the sea wind blowing and deafening silence enveloping all my senses - i am just at a lost to describe the peace and joy i was experiencing at that moment in time - i tried to pass this experience to my family but words just totally failed in communicating the @@@@@ feeling.

having said that, another person going thru the same scenery may describe it differently - like the 5 blind men and the elephant.

rgds all

Anonymous said...

agnos,

Thanks for the sharing of the Beach & Sun + YOU at the spot!

You make the Beach & Sun in existence. The same they remind the existence of YOURS with the Warmth and Breeze of Them!!

A King without People, A King?
A PM seeing no Rakyats,
who'll be there to elect?
Cause & Effect,
Yin & Yan
both good terms in Philosophy to take!

Some simple slogan/poems to sign & relax!
for the 6 senses to exercise a bit in the 5th Dimensions or 6th!

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=1181672827682662169&postID=1098247330369677860

Anonymous said...

Yes, Sharing, "Realize" is indeed the keyword.

Only individuals can realize, not a crowd which can't even think for only individuals can think, never a crowd.

The story about people who declares, "I can't believe this and that unless you show me ..." isn't something new. Most of the time, no one else could unless they would have been so fortunate as to have met truly powerful masters like that of Swami Vivekananda, i.e.
Ramakrishnan, e.g. or a real living master of Sat Sang who could produce upon them that transcending experience by a touch ;) . But how to translate a mystical experience is also another matter again.

People of Christian background might still be in bewilderment regarding Edgar Cayce, e.g., who was apparently able to consult the Akashic Record for his remarkable readings.

Maverick SM said...

Sharing,

Thanks for the links to the philosophical sphere.

wits0,

I agree that the title seems to imply either or, for it needn't be, as often it is either if.

However, human must have less equation to metaphysics as the dominating force per se; it often is more to do with the philosophy of art.

Agnos,

Thanks for a great analysis.

Wits0,

You are so philosophical!!! Tho' I love philosophy of living and the interconnectivity with metaphysics, there is also the elements of humanism and the art of living.

Sharing,

Thanks for the poem, particularly the translation.

Oh, I am happy to have a few philosophers here; this makes the discussion interesting and helps me explore wider concepts and philosophies. Thank you, wits0, Agnos, Sharing, Multidimid. I hope we will continue to share our knowledge and understanding; and with an intent to explore and enhance.Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Maverick,

Any wish to continue with the Transition of Dao De Jing, chapter by chapter?

Anonymous said...

Mav, the elements of humanism and the art of living must begin with according the Golden Rule of Humanity to all. Most known Creeds do except for a very few.(You really don't want me to point out the glaring example of one!) The principle of reciprocity must first be observed. Then the moral uprightness must be observe(for one's own good), e.g. The Eightfold Noble Path which follows the initial understanding of Buddha's 4 Noble Truths regarding the nature of existence on this plane.

Not forgetting something like the statement of the Kalama Sutra on Intellectual Freedom:

Kalama Sutra:

"Rely not on the teacher/person, but on the teaching. Rely not on the words of the teaching, but on the spirit of the words. Rely not on theory, but on experience.Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. Do not believe anything because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything because it is written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is
conducive to the good and the benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."

- the Buddha "

(Majoritism therefore just crashed! Hahaha!)

There is humanism and art within that, won't you say, Mav? Actually very much commonsense derivation as well!

Democracy begins with thinking and according of the law of reciprocity and freedom to think for all people. It indirectly implies that all ideas and concepts must be open to challenge as and when need arises and that rigid dogmas are actually detrimental to humanity.

At least so, IMO, :D

Anonymous said...

OTOH, Mav, please also refer to Christ's Sermon on the Mount (on the invisble laws aka Karma)- the Beatitudes and the Woes. The language may be symbolic but the thrust of the message is quite clear.

Sharing, was thinking how the Diamond Sutra and the Tao Te Ching has much in common, although the former is necessarily very brief and the later long.

Maverick SM said...

Sharing,

You should relate Tao De Jing with others such as Lieh-Tze, Yanh Chu and Mo Tze, and Han Fei Tze. Otherwise we will be myopic.

Maverick SM said...

Wits0,

But philosophy is not to be explain any mystery, and a philosophger is not one who has any superhuman insight extraordinary insights. there are things that are the product of nature and those which comes from causes other than nature. Thus we have the products of art and product of nature, of which the two are contrasting.

Anonymous said...

Mav, They all came from the Mind. The Universe is Mind Created and all sentient beings are co-creators of it....to put it that briefly. Mind creates matter, never the other way around.

What is mind?
No matter.
What is matter?
Never mind.

- Thomas Hewitt Key

Buddha and Seth made that similar statement about this Reality.

BTW, Mav, where does Philosophy end and knowledge begin? Who defines that?

If you're ready, try another intriguing source:
http://www.summum.us/philosophy/book.shtml
http://www.summum.us/downloads/summum.exe

Anonymous said...

Maverick,

Thanks the notes!

The background and purpose of those are the key points to mark.
They started with similar points with different destinations and ways to reach.
A human more into nature or society
more on reality or ideology
more on individual or society
more on long term or the conditions around.

The understanding of the basic elements are the key points to start before roaming around.

Thanks wits0 to provide a good link to have elements and principle understood!
A good one for the English spectacles to take!
A resonance for those Chinese spectacles to please!
A good one for all human
with eyes and soul to read!

Happy weekend to those reading this!

Maverick SM said...

wits0,

Thanks for the link. I'll read it.

Sharing,

I agree with you that the basics must be comprehended before roaming around. The Chinese Philosophers themselves have so many schools of thoughts.

Anonymous said...

wits0,

Is the following a question?to me?
"Sharing, was thinking how the Diamond Sutra and the Tao Te Ching has much in common, although the former is necessarily very brief and the later long."

If so, I apologize for missing yours as I took it as a remarks!

Diamond Sutra I had not read
nor any philosophy in depth! Please input if you have more jades to spare!

1. Basic understanding from a translation point of view, the Diamond Sutra that you have read most probably is using Chinese terms.

2. For Philosophy, I believe it is within the domain of Human, Earth and life with rational and emotional part of the mind towards different targets and using different ways with different emphasis on various elements. So, there are similarity to start.

3. Historically, those important Chinese Philosophies were started as early as the Chun-Qiu and later the War-States period. Buddhism migrated to China later in Jin Dynasty, a few hundred years apart! The Buddhism in Chinese had adopted more Chinese Philosophy than the original Buddhism from India (which help its survival whereas Buddhism in India is almost gone!) The latest version I believe is "Zen".

Buddha is more emotional with emphasis on compassions!

Confucius and Taoism were started almost at the same period. Where Confucius was more in adopting the ceremonial rules of the Zhou Empire - family and nobility, therefore, the courtesy system is one of the elements it emphasized. With priorities extending from families, friends, officers and the Emperor.
More rational than Buddha but still emphasis much on kindness.

Taoism is more rational with the cut of classes, more fairness orientated included all living organisms with more emphasis on the health maintenance and society management. So, more targets were touched, therefore, I guess this is the reason why Tao Te Ching is longer than Diamond Sutra.

To answer Maverick a bit.
1. Lieh-Tze - is more emphasized in maintenance of health (meditation), than the social (political) matter. So, more individual orientated and it cames with a number of stories.

2. Mo Tze - in the War-state period with emphasis on practical than ceremonial. Rulers should be according to abilities and not to be according to nobility. It was to tackle the problems of bureaucracy and the inhering and classes from the previous Dynasty and to suit the competition or dividing period of China. Promoting fair competitions and a reward to performance system. Another emphasis is on compassion towards others disregard of family priorities. Quite similar to the present way of Democracy with Human Rights!

3. Tao Te Jing is more on working up a Saint towards the society pin-pointing the elements around the individuals, society and the nature to end up with harmony with spiritual development of individual . Taking away bureaucracy, nobility and imposing fairness among all!

Hope this gives some dusts to be touched-up!

Anonymous said...

Seth's expression is much easier to understand because it is not archaic sounding or culture bound in style but actually straight forward.

Sample this part excerpt from Seth:
"The power and ability of human personality...

"The personality can dwell, and does dwell, in many worlds at once."
Session 180, Page 212

"The human personality has no limitations except those which it accepts. There are no limits to its development or growth, if it will accept no limits. There are no boundaries to the self except those boundaries which the self arbitrarily creates and perpetuates. There is no veil through which human perception cannot see, except the veil of ignorance which is pulled down by the materialistic ego.

"That which appears empty, such as your space, is empty only for those who do not perceive, who are blind because they fear to perceive that which the ego cannot understand. The ego, however, is also capable of greater knowledge and potentiality and scope. It dwells in the physical universe, but it can indeed also perceive and appreciate other realities. The ego is part of the personality and as such it can partake of sturdier, heartier, more vivid realities. The personality can dwell and does dwell in many worlds at once.

"The inquiring intuitions and the searching self, like summer winds, can travel in small and large spaces, can know of actualities that are more minute than pinheads and more massive than galaxies. The power and ability of the human personality, in a most practical manner, can be
seen as unlimited."

Seth through Jane Roberts
This excerpt is the last page of Session 180 (dated August 23, 1965)

Excerpts from Physical Universe as Idea Construction

~ by Jane Roberts in an altered state of consciousness ultimately leading to the Seth material.

"Energy is the basis of the universe.

Ideas are mental transformations of energy by an entity into physical reality.

Idea constructions are transformations of ideas into physicalreality.

Space is where our own idea constructions do not exist in the physical universe.

The physical body is the material construction of the entity's idea of itself under the properties of matter.

The individual is the part of the entity or whole self of which we are conscious in daily life.

It is that part of the whole self which we are able to express or make "real" through our idea constructions on a physical level.

The subconscious is the threshold of an idea's emergence into the individual conscious mind. It connects the entity and the individual.

Personality is the individual's overall responses to ideas received and constructed.

It represents the emotional coloration of the individual's ideas and constructions at any given "time".

Emotions are the driving force that propel ideas into constructions.

Instinct is the minimum ability for idea constructions necessary for physical survival.

Learning is the potential for constructing new idea complexes from existing ideas.

Idea complexes are groups of ideas formed together like building blocks to form more complicated constructions in physical reality.

Communication is the interchange of ideas by entities on the energy nonphysical level.

Action is idea in motion.

The senses are channels of projection by which ideas are projected outward to create the world of appearances.

Environment is the overall idea constructions with which an individual surrounds himself.

Physical time is the apparent lapse between the emergence of an idea in the physical universe (as a construction) and its replacement by another.

The past is the memory of ideas that were but are no longer physical constructions.

The present is the apparent point of any idea's emergence into physical reality.

The future is the apparent lapse between the disappearance of one idea construction and its replacement by another in physicalreality.

Psychological time is the apparent lapse between the conception of ideas.

Aging is the effect upon an idea construction of the properties of matter of which the construction is composed.

Growth is the formation of an idea construction toward its fullest possible materialization following the properties of matter.

Sleep is the entity's relative rest from idea construction except the minimum necessary for physical survival.

The physical universe is the sum of individual idea constructions.

Memory is the ghost image of "past" idea constructions.

Each evolutionary change is preceded and caused by a new idea.

As the idea is in the process of being constructed onto the physical plane, it prepares the material world for its own actuality and creates the prerequisite conditions.

Evolution is energy's movement toward conscious expression in the physical universe, but it is basically nonphysical.

A species at any given time is the materialization of the inner images or ideas of its individual members, each of whom forms his own idea constructions.

At no point can we actually say that one construction vanishes and another takes its place, but artificially we adopt certain points as past, present and future, for convenience.

At some point, we agree that the physical construction ceases to be elements of the "past" construction and is already becoming the"next" one.

Though the construction of an idea seems to disappear physically, the idea which it represents still exists.

Sleep is the entity's rest from physical idea construction........"

..the rest in :
http://sethquotes.paradisenow.net/seth_excerpts_part_v.html

Note:
Remember that famous statement by the Buddha that all that can be known about this Universe is found in this(our)fathom length body....because we are Idea Construct itself. The Human mind is capable of focusing upon itself as via meditation, e.g.

Anonymous said...

A has the followings:
1 million Taiwan Dollars
1 million Thai baht
1 million Japanese Yens
1 million RMB
I have a house of 1million RM
4 maids
4 wifes and 4 kids

B has the followings:
a factory of 1 million RM
turn over 1 million USD per year by trading
a house in Thai of 1 million Baht
1 maids
1 wifes and 2 kids

1. Are they rich?
2. Who should be richer or will be richer?
3. And Why?

Anonymous said...

(The above is my posting but mis-sent as under "S")

My answer be:
1. Cannot tell if they are rich as "standard" not here.
2. After converting all into the same unit/ terms RM
a) A is richer than B - on Overall Asset (approx. 1.7million to 1.1).
b) B is richer than A - on Fixed Asset (approx 1.1 million to 1)
c) A is richer than B - by cash.
d) For the future, unknown. As there are unknown factors with expense/Income with maid, wifes and kids.
--------------------

This is to illustrate the same "unit" or "terms" be used for "relativity" (comparison),
and, only can be done when both are on the "same ground" (Fixed Asset, ...),
or even same figures there, the relativity (on different basis) can be changed even nothing had changed.
----------

Reasons for moving to the above illustration:

1. After being pointed to so many philosophies, I believe one can be easily lost if too many "terms" are used,
implying too many factors without a clear relationship, especially when all does not happened in the same "matter" or "thought".
2. What are basic to Human philosophy? I suppose, are:
a) Relativities and Co-existence (take it as RelaCo) with Priority are main factors to "be realized"
between a Person to the rest, a "reality" to other "realities" of being (material/realities) or non-being (abstracts).
b) RelaCo are in many Aspects (or a blend of dimensions or factors). Ranging from "material" to "abstract/spiritual" and the in between.
What are the bottom lines?
Beyond "worst", everything is good - this is the most important of all!
-Only those RelaCo helpful to life should be promoted.
-Only those RelaCo essential to such topic or occasion should be applied.
-Limitation applies in realities, not in thoughts. So greediness cut but spiritual more!
c) The abstract/spiritual cannot be there without starting from something of a reality!
This is the Priority! Wisdom cannot start without knowing the realities!!
So, "Education of Realities" must be provided as seeds for the RelaCo to come.
Or, it will be fascination without construction and going out of realities.
A soul cannot start without the reality of a human. Soul of a human can be continued only if his "soul" are practiced by others in time to come.
d) Therefore, any solution must be able to satisfy the basic of the reality before the "spiritual".
A "balance" must be sought for the peace of the individual as much as the society at a whole,
depending the Relaco to take and explore.
e) Further, a Equal and Mutual Understanding of All these in a Society are essential for Peace and Development.

The Problems with Spiritual without the Balance of Realities
---------
Buddha in India has faded out because a prince can provide solution to both reality and
spiritual and not ordinary people.
When the reality of living cannot be solved, that philosophy faded.
A lot of country in turmoil is because spiritual has override reality
with the absence of the beneficial Relaco to each individual and the society to go.

Buddhism in China has survived and well. I believe they had been practiced with the blend of Chinese Philosophy
that the basic reality of living being taken care.
Basic living must be provided before any spiritual can rise!
Knowing the minimum a basis to keep reality easily achieved and more spiritual to go.

Problems will come without Realizing RelaCo, the Priority, the Equally or Mutuality.
----
Questions should again be asked such as:
1. If no People, will there be the Government or King?
2. If only spiritual but not realities to back, can Human sustain?
3. If no Rights of People be respected, will Rights of Official be recognized?
.....

multidimid said...

Wow, coming back to this post, I see Witso has expounded briefly on Seth profound ideas which “touched many with the knowledge he brought to us. And all those he touched reached out and touched others”.

His purpose “I have been sent to help you, and others have been sent through the centuries of your time, for as you develop you also form new dimensions and you will help others”. For many of us in the evening of our lives and looking for the purpose we are here
Go H E R E
and read his quotable quotes.
“You listen to these words that are spoken in English, yet beneath the words raise a knowledge that is inherent in your own being. Let that knowledge then joyfully rise, and when the words that I speak reach you, then will indeed the verbs and the nouns, the vowels and the syllables, turn into birds of knowledge that fly out of your own skulls and through the dreams of your night time, and transform your days."
As for Witso’s Karmaric idea the explanation for the record:-
"Karma presents the opportunity for development. It enables the individual to enlarge understanding through experience, to fill in gaps of ignorance, to do what should be done. Free will is always involved.

And physical life in a reincarnational self is not some chaos thrust upon you, some evil from which you must shortly hope to escape. It is a particular reality in which you have chosen to know your existence, in which you have chosen to develop yourself; and again, it is indeed a system like no other system--a unique and dear and beloved portion of reality in which you have chosen to flourish for a while. And in denying it, again, you deny the reality of experience.

It does not follow that everyone with whom you are concerned was also involved with you in past lives. You will always meet new personalities in various existences, as well as people you have known”
And this also explain why there are so many buddies around and why some people like and dislike others and where our fears come from.
Cheers to all
PRESENT POINT POWER